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An Email Trail of
Self-help:
Stopping Abusive Relationships
Contents
Subject: Interpretation of Dream
How Much More Could I Work on Myself?
Realization, Regret, Repentance.
The Obvious Symbols in Your Dream
Subject: Eagerly awaiting the interpretation of Dawn’s dream
I am Still Frustrated that my H Doesn't Get It
I Want to Tell Him to Get the Hell out of My Life
Parenting Tip Number 38--Grow Up Before your Kids Do
Subject: Take what's there and try to make something out of it.
Subject: Gratitude for this Group
I am Struck by How Alike We All Are
Subject: Our Email Support Group
The Apple is Losing it’s Shine
Subject: Feeling like you're abusive too
You Feel Like You are Crazy for Feeling Abused
Subject: We get abusive in reaction to the crazy-making
Shame/guilt about our Own Behavior
Many Good-hearted Men "Grant" Others their Rights
Subject: Pray please: Miscarriage
I Worry this will Fester and Push Us Apart
Subject: The Universe is talking to you
Why on Earth Would You be Sorry?
There is Birth Control for Men Too!
Subject: Jamie is not being a jerk.
I Slipped and Worried More About Him and US than Myself
Subject: I was reacting to your slip
Subject: There might be some grieving
Subject: The sadness hit me about two days after
I thank you again for your support!! Take care, Dawn
Subject: Don’t complain in order to validate self
I Want His Realization, His Regret, His Repentance
How Typical to Discount all the Good I Have Done
Subject: I’m depressed and stuff
Subject: Our diversity is amazing
I Wasn’t so Self-Centered as Him-Centered
Differences Between Setting Boundaries and Control
I am Powerless Over Him and our Marriage
Every Act of Falling is an Integral Part of Life
Subject: You want what you fooled yourself into believing.
There is no Beating the Reality, Outside of Insanity.
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001
From: Mom
To: Shelly
Sounds like some pretty heavy stuff about the guys being the same in her life. Could the “wet” be that her understanding of the new guy is all wet? Not so good for her baby either. She is so good at critical thinking of others and what they are going thru but if she's the same as most of us that grows dim in her own life. Let me know what you get from the dream. LLM
Subject: Interpretation of Dream
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001
From: Shelly
To: The Ladies
Hi Dawn, You are so astute--but that's why God sent you to me. The title of the book is "Recovery from Rescuing" but it’s out of print.
Yes, my counselor is pretty good. He picks up on things rather fast. As you said, the abuser makes twisted statements that leave you wondering--the thing is, that person doesn't realize it. Bob doesn't realize that him "taking responsibility" by saying "I rebelled against you" is saying I did something that he reacted to and is blaming me in essence. I shared with him what the counselor said about him coming back in. My husband is not going to counseling, meetings, nor does he have a sponsor or even friend to talk to. He has forgotten it all and all is well in tinsel town. HA! I am left sitting here with a man who is very sweet most of the time and can't understand why I am being so distant. You are right--if we have a reaction we can feel “bad, mad” sad and... glad! I think you can choose the “glad” feeling if you totally disassociate and are into taking care of yourself. I'm not there yet. I called my sponsor in Al-Anon and told her how I was feeling. She said I had to stop focusing on him and take care of my own problems. Made me really react. I said one person can't work on a relationship. I was going to counseling, reading books, doing this support thing with you on the web, saying I'm sorry, looking for answers, taking inventory,--how much more could I work on myself? He was "forgetting" it. She said, "Yes, but you keep talking about him, not yourself."
Christ, Dawn--I am at a crossroads waiting for the suicide bomber to make the decision for me. I do not want to force anything. I want to do the next right thing, yet... I feel like I'm a big fake. I don't want him to touch me--not that it’s repulsive, but it’s not a sign of intimacy, its something else. I pull away, I try to avoid sex, I sit far away from him on the couch. He is very nice about it all, and persistent. This is not typical for me (or him!). I normally would be in his arms and all grateful that he was "forgetting" the whole thing. But I'm MAD. That he won't/can't admit his part in our crisis and won't work through it, just blames me. And all the while says, "You blame me for everything." I guess that's why I came up with the 25%-75% stuff. Yes, as you said I want his "realization, his regret, his repentance." You and Mom and Patricia Evans all say that isn't going to happen. I'm just supposed to "lump it" and move on. I did that for 5 years. Today I don't want to--more than that, I'm not sure I can. I don't know what to do with the resentment I feel for him right now. So if the only way to get past this is to let him get away with his shabby treatment of me and our marriage and allow him to see himself as the wronged party, to allow him the few short sentences of "we were both wrong, and lets forget it" as the foundation for a new beginning, it isn't going to happen. You are right, determining blame and getting to the basis of what happened probably is a waste of time, but not because it won't strengthen the relationship, for me it would. It's a waste of time because he is wrapped in denial. I guess what I'm saying, is I know if I just "forget" it as he does, that we can pretend to move on. His treatment of me is still very discounting, countering, withholding, and the rest of the abusive pattern will return when he relaxes (and/or gets stressed again), no doubt. Today he is also very kind, affectionate, (still not attentive), and serene.
I remember your realization came when your brother pointed out my ex's shoddy treatment of you. The light went on. I realized I was in real trouble when my H sabotaged last Christmas for me. The light bulb went on when I read the Evan's book. I've implemented the strategies to stop the worse abuse and it’s worked! Yet I feel raped. And I feel I'm being asked to forgive and forget the event and submit to the rapist. I feel like I'm being told, "Look, you got raped. Big deal. You weren't really hurt. There are no marks. If you want a good relationship you will just have to accept that he can't admit his part in it." You see? I feel like my husband is saying, "Why can't you just forget it? I have! I know I was part responsible for what happened but it was 50-50. You contributed to the rape too! If you hadn't of done thus and such, I wouldn't have had to rebel against you." In order to make the marriage work, I'm supposed to say, "Well, it will hurt him too much to actually see his part of it, so I'll let him deny it and blame me for victimizing him!" I didn't rape him. I didn't rape the marriage. I made mistakes; he made mistakes; I acted a little badly and he acted very very badly. I wonder what vindication would mean for me?
Your dream. Mom had the same reaction I did. It’s actually very obvious what it means but you aren't seeing it too clearly because you don't want to, I'm guessing. Once I had a dream and in the dream (I think I wrote this in one of my books) I am in a hole in the forest. The dream ends with a poem: It's a little like vacationing, a little like vacating, meaning in a thousand trees and meaning in as many me's. When I get myself into holes, I am vacating what I know about things--taking a vacation so to speak from reality. The trees represent my past lives and the meaning they bring to this one. I often can’t see the forest because of the trees in the way.
As you know, I do tend to fixate on details and not see the larger picture. I think you might be doing something similar and your subconscious is screaming at you. Remember the Mirror Channel? She says, "If we run away from a person or situation which was created to teach us something, we will just repeat the uncomfortable experience. On the Mirror Channel we know we created or attracted into our lives, the perfect people and the perfect situations to teach us the lessons that we forgot we wanted to learn." I will "interpret" some of the more obvious symbols in caps and you interpret the dream:
Jamie (the boyfriend) and my ex keep going back and forth as a character in my dream (THEY REPRESENT THE SAME LESSONS FOR YOU). They are the same person, but in my head during the dream, the character goes back from my ex; to Jamie, but they may be a different character altogether (THIS IS THE LESSON YOU ARE LEARNING AND APPARENTLY HAVEN'T LET IT GO YET--
WHETHER JAMIE, DAVE OR A NEW PARTNER--THEY WILL BRING THE SAME LESSONS TO YOU).
Also, my dream last night was convoluted but the gist of it was. I and Jamie/my ex were in a house (YOUR LIFE) with a whole bunch of family/friends (THEY REPRESENT THEMSELVES MOST LIKELY)-- just mass chaos going on a big party. We also had a baby (THE FRUITS OF YOUR RELATIONSHIP) -- Hunter (IN THIS CASE, NOT HUNTER) I think -- but he was younger -- under a year old, not walking yet. I lost Hunter a couple of times during the dream and was constantly worried about the baby b/c of the chaos in the house (CHAOS IN YOUR LIFE), while my ex/Jamie were unconcerned, saying, someone was taking care of him (YOU CARE ABOUT THE RESULTS/FRUITS OF YOUR UNIONS, THEY DON'T) and I just needed to relax and have a good time. There was an element of a big Italian family in the house -- like everyone had dark hair and my ex/Jamie were the stereotype Italian guy (DARK IS A MYSTERY, DARK HAIR REPRESENTS MYSTERIOUS THOUGHTS THAT YOU DON'T SEE--ALSO IT MAY REPRESENT THE PATRIARCHAL FAMILY SYSTEM WHICH IS ABUSIVE WITH THE DOMINANT MALE AND HOW OUR SOCIETY BUYS INTO THAT). (Funny b/c they are both light and are Scandinavian (my ex) and Irish (Jamie). But my ex actually is like 25% Italian, and that's probably where that came from (YOUR SUBCONSCIOUS PICKED SOMETHING YOU KNEW TO SYMBOLIZE WHAT IT IS TRYING TO TELL YOU). Anyway, the other thing nagging me during this whole dream was that the house was sloppy, messy (YOUR LIFE WITH A GUY) and the worst thing was the floor (FOUNDATION) had a layer of water (EMOTIONS) on it and clothes (HOW YOU SHOW YOUR SELF TO THE WORLD) were strewn around in the water and nobody cared (YOU FEEL OTHERS IN YOUR LIFE DON'T CARE ABOUT THE MESS WHEN YOU ARE WITH THESE GUYS) and when we went to bed (THIS IS THE BED YOU MAKE), we went into this tiny room with two sets of bunk beds (EACH BUNK BED REPRESENTS A MARRIAGE/UNION WHERE ONE IS ON TOP AND THE OTHER BOTTOM--IE DOMINANCE) and the floor was wet and I was worried about the baby getting sick (THE FRUITS OF THE RELATIONSHIP BEING SICK) in the damp and also freaky about touching the floor (YOU DON'T WANT TO KEEP STEPPING IN IT). Also, the entire time I was trying to nail Jamie/my ex down to spending time with me (YOU INVITE THIS TYPE OF SITUATION), being consistent and being there. Jamie/my ex just wanted to party, have fun, and didn't really have me in the forefront of their minds (YES).
I often times have trouble seeing what my dreams say because I just don't want to believe it. that is my denial--but it’s all pretty clear if we get ego out of the way. I hope this helps. I would like to give back some of what you have so graciously given me! LOL, Shelly
Subject: Eagerly awaiting the interpretation of Dawn’s dream
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001
From: Tammy
To: The Ladies
Hi Shelly, Thank you, I have been eagerly awaiting your interpretation on Dawn's dream. Wow, I don't dream or at least I can't recall my dreams so I think other people's are interesting. I think my lack of dreaming is because of my sleep apnea (I stop breathing when I'm asleep) so I wake up all night long. I am being treated for this problem and thought my dreams would return when I started sleeping through the night but they haven't. I think the lack of dreams increases my stress, I have no subconscious outlet for my emotions.
What you said about where you are right now with your H, really hit home. My bomb went off: my divorce was final Aug. 17,2001; my twenty year marriage is over. I am still frustrated that my H doesn't get it. I need resolution in regards to the issues that lead to the end of my marriage. I want to write my H a letter, I need to systematically lay it all out there. I need to look at everything in a logical manner and see what I did wrong, how I should have acted differently or reacted differently. I don't want to make the same mistakes again. I want to learn all I can from what has happened and grow from this. If I can't resolve things for myself then I am destined to repeat them. I know that even if I would have reacted differently to my H's manipulation, the outcome would have been the same. He has made it more than clear that he does not love me, has never loved me and married me because his parents pressured him to do so. But I have to get the crap out so I can let it go. I think laying it all out even if I don't send the letter to him will help me let go.
Anyway, I get hung up on writing the letter because of him. He treated me so badly especially regarding my weight that I got to the point that I felt he didn't deserve a thin wife. When I weighed 122lbs. he looked at me and said,
"you’re looking good, only about 5 or so pounds to go right?" That was it I started gaining from that moment on and am now the heaviest I have ever been. He didn't appreciate me then or now so what difference should my size
make? I now realize that I am the one who has paid the dear price with my health. My kids have suffered too, 'cause I wasn't as active as I should have been when they were young, I let him take my health because of my own stubbornness. I should have reacted differently to his discounting comment. Anyway I feel the same way about the letter. Why should I help him resolve issues in a marriage he never wanted in the first place? What if I write him
and he gets it? Then becomes a better man for the whore he is sleeping with now. The answer is because I am the one who will pay the price if the issues are not resolved and I need to take care of me, eat right, exercise and unpack my baggage. I want to learn from all this, I have to learn or twenty years of my life has been wasted. If he happens to get it, then maybe he will be a better father and that would be best for my kids so it would be a good thing, right?
It would be easier to get on with things if we didn't still own a house together and have a child at home. He is still depressed and on medication (thank God, cause he is suicidal without it) which makes it hard for me cause I want to tell him off, I want to tell him to get the hell out of my life. He comes crying (literally) to me that he is unwanted. That his kids don't want anything to do with him. He has no idea what is means to be in a relationship. It requires an investment and commitment of your time. He will give the kids no notice and then be upset ‘cause they have other plans. If they don't want to do horse stuff, then he thinks they don't want to be with him. He makes little or no effort to do things that they are interested in. If you are not into horses, you are not in my ex’s life. I get so upset when he cries about being unwanted. He is the one who wanted out, I am the one who held on for dear life and then was discarded. What the hell is that?
He makes me crazy he has no idea what it means to be divorced. The other day he asked me what I wanted for Christmas. I said he was the last person I wanted a gift from and did he know what the word divorced means? Did he need me to look it up for him? He wants us to be friends, help each other out, maybe even be friends that fuck! Again, what the hell is that? He wants the best of both worlds he wants me to be there to help him out, feed his horses when he is working out of town, arrange things with his kids, invite him over for birthday's and Christmas, the electricity is out at my house can I stay over here, on and on. He is using me and not doing anything to help me out and is calling it friendship. If I had a friend like him he wouldn't be my friend. He wants his money safe from me and his dick free to do as it wants. I almost bought him a Christmas present; a shirt that said “Parenting tip number 38--grow up before your kids do.” It suits him.
Anyway, I just keep struggling to find my lesson and my friend Kathi said to me that all things happen for a reason. She said something else that really made me think. She said maybe this is not my lesson. Maybe I am just part of
my H's lesson. God is trying to teach my H something and because the kids and I were in his life we just got caught up in it. I feel such a need to resolve, yet I don't find the time to do it, so I wonder if I am supposed to be trying to work this out at all. Recently I was reminded of a couple of scriptures in the Bible. Psalms 27:14--Wait on the Lord: be of good courage, and he shall strengthen thine heart: wait I say on the Lord. Isaiah 40:31--But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk and not faint. Teach me lord, teach me lord to wait.
Maybe I, maybe we all, need to wait. Rest, breathe, stop trying so hard to fix everything in our world. If we truly are searching for our Higher Power’s guidance in our lives then maybe we need to slow down and wait for it to catch up with us. I love your support. Hope everyone in group is well. Talk to you soon.--TB
Subject: Take what's there and try to make something out of it.
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001
From: Mom
To: The Ladies
Good things from both of you!!!! I sure go over my relationships in a different way from going on this journey. My only comment on what I say is that I don't think it will ever work. I think you should ease out of it (much as you did financially) and count your blessings. I say you talk as if you want to continue, and short of a miracle (which happens), You need to accept what you have in your husband now, cause I don't think he is going to change any time soon. But I'm not saying swallow your pain and continue, as what I would think of as a good life, only if it's something you would want to continue to do. It's hard to put into words for you. We are all picking up on it and trying to say to you that you sound as if you want to continue and if that's the case then you take what's there and try to make something out of it.
I would like you to continue counseling entirely for yourself. I don't know why the counselor didn't advise you on some things to do about your still obvious pain and unhappiness. (I'm putting in here that it's a matter of degree, you aren't anywhere near where you were this last year). You're basing your well-being entirely on you Husband (I'm putting in here that you have continued with the rest of your life so it's only in this area you're putting your well-being into his hands) and how much he is willing to give you of his understanding and tender love. My personal feeling is that he doesn't have much to give from within himself, not that he's purposely trying to keep it from you (although this is being kind from me, I think this is the only way he can still get to you and is doing so, but at the same time I still don't think he has much inside of him). I think we're all missing somewhat of what you're saying and it will get clearer as time goes by.
I know it sounds perfectly easy to understand, I just haven't applied it to any solutions about relationships. If you want others to understand, you must understand yourself. Then other’s understanding isn't exactly vital. If I don't like others to question or cut off my speech, I need to accept what I say in some kind of way (still fuzzy). If someone wants to be loved, they need to love themselves, not get the other person to love them in just the way they think they should be loved. Of course it does help to have the other person love, understand or accept us, but it's really our job to do it within ourselves. If I want shop keepers to understand I'm tired and accept my irritation, I need to accept my tiredness. I think it goes something like that. I kept thinking about changing my (or others) behavior and maybe it boils down to just accepting it . Not clear but I think there's something to that. I don't accept my own illness, want to be energetic etc., if I accept it then (then what? I'm not irritated anymore?). I'm going to try to accept whatever I want others to accept in me. Think you've hit on something for me!!!!!!! LLM
Subject: Gratitude for this Group
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001
From: Shelly
To: The Ladies
Hello, Tammy, Dawn, and Mom, Gratitude for each of you:
I want to thank Dawn for organically responding to my email on the Dr. Irene site and offering me so much of her insight. Dawn, you are incredibly insightful and I think somewhat psychic. so brave to take on the world and your recovery while tending to Hunter's needs. You have been in recovery from co-dependency and abusive relationships for the longest of all of us--I mean in a formal sense. It is your experience, strength and hope that this email recovery group is built on and drawing from right now. Thank you for being here for me (us).
Tammy. I want to thank you for your courage to call me and ask for mutual support via electronic mail. Your pain and self questioning are an inspiration to me and your courage to plow through the confusion and abuse remarkable. You are so close to my heart and I want to hear more of the process as you wade through it. Let us reach out to you.
Mom. My right arm. The woman who has been there for me unfailingly--listened to my hours and hours of rambling while I hack my way out of the jungle of confusion, fear, and pain as I try to figure out how the hell I did it one more time. She shares what happened with her abusers and solved the problem by opting out of all romantic relationships-- something she says no woman needs! Yet my Mom continues to put the pieces together as she reaches out to others, gently, gently guiding them toward self-empowerment. She bought a stack of Evan's 'The
verbally Abusive Relationship" and gives them to the many young women she is helping. You are my role model.
Holiday Greetings:
To each of you I wish the very best Christmas. We have a new year of growth and opportunity awaiting us. And with the insight and strength of each of one flowing from one heart to the other, I can not see how we can fail to find success and abundance in the coming year. God bless and keep each one of you and make your Christmas full of light and love and cheer. Shelly
Date Fri, 14 Dec 2001 06:25:43 -0800
From: Mom
To: The Ladies
What a sweet Christmas offering in unique thanks!!!!! Very appreciated, especially since my feeling is always that I should say things in a different more "acceptable" manner. I'm mentally practicing giving myself everything that I expect others are not giving me. This old feeling of unacceptable speech is one of the first and your thanks really is timely. In one day I have had three thank you's that were especially meaningful. Your father all but apologized to me in a letter!!!!!! As much as you can expect from an old drunk ex. I got another from Marya!!! Well the universe is telling me to accept what I get and believe me it really is enough. I will practice today on telling myself that I deserve (cringe) it all.
I just had to write a little to all you guys, too. Shelly usually passes on my stuff if it's not too sarcastic!!!! I'm 72 and had my last relationship 20 years ago and when it was over I opted out for the duration. I didn't care if I chose the wrong type of person or rubbed decent men into insanity. I am struck by how alike we all are when in an abusive relationship, (which I've just now been able to understand as my relationships, thru Shell, the books and Dawn). We think of ourselves as abusive or just as bad as our partner because we yell or react negatively when we're just about crazy by their words or actions. We think their life situations have driven them to be abusive (sullen, yelling, withdrawn, hitting, selfish, etc.) but they are really good people underneath it all. They blame us and we mostly believe them. We're successful active humans who have overcome a lot of shit with very little help. I can't give any reason for all this but the similarities are striking and must mean something!!!!\
Much love and good luck from your fellow travelers. Shelly's Mom
Subject: Our Email Support Group
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001
From: Dawn
To: The Ladies
Shelly and all, Thank you for the wonderful note and nod to my "experience." I still find it amazing that my badly executed attempts at healing an abusive relationship are helping others. I guess, for me, the real healing came after I left the relationship. In that, maybe I can give strength to those who leave and show 20/20 hindsight for those that wish to stay in.
I am pleased and excited to have your mom and Tammy be a part of the support group, as you call it. Aren't women wonderful????
Shelly, the symbols you gave me for my dream were amazing. I forwarded your e-mail on the dream to my friend Crystal and she was just amazed too!!! Thank you for your expertise. I told Jamie about the dream and asked him what he thought it meant without giving him your interpretation. He said he thought that I was starting to think Jamie was slipping into a more "my ex-like" treatment of me. He put it like this: "The apple is losing its shine." He also said the water was my emotions and the chaos in the house was my fears of Jamie becoming my ex-like. Pretty good observation. I then told him your interpretation and he agreed with it. It's funny too, b/c this week Jamie has been less attentive and seems like his interest is waning and I told him so and he didn't take well to that. So I guess I was feeling like the "apple (Jamie) was losing its shine."
Jamie and I had a fairly frustrating conversation about me wanting more contact with him, like phone calls and day-to-day chit chat and him saying that he thinks I'm looking for more commitment than him. It wasn't an abusive conversation, or a round and round thing, like when I was with my ex. We were both trying hard to understand the other, but it deteriorated to the typical feeling-attacked-by-female-telling-what's-lacking-for-her conversation. The good thing is, we recovered nicely and last night joked about our bad communication and he and I talked for two hours and it was a nice connecting call and we made some plans for New Year's Eve. So now I'm feeling satisfied. That's the kind of injection of attention I need to keep me happy. I need to make plans to do fun dating stuff with him and I need to talk to him and just feel close for a while every few days. (We don't get a chance to see each other much because we live at opposite sides of the Minneapolis-St. Paul suburban area and our custody schedule with our kids are often opposite.) So, I'm back to thinking not all men are inconsiderate, unaware numbskulls.
Shelly -- I got your Christmas card and story for Hunter. Thank you! I will let you know what Hunter thinks about it when I read it to him tonight. I spent the weekend without Hunter doing some last-minute shopping and wrapping. It was a nice, relaxing weekend and I'm so glad to be so organized for Christmas. Hunter and I are going north to my Dad's and my Mom's. They live in the same town and are both remarried so it's a little like bouncing around during holiday, but it works out OK. It's nice to not have to factor in another family (i.e. a spouse's or boyfriend's) family this year! Happy Holidays to you all!! Dawn
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001
From: Tammy
To: The Ladies
Hey Shelly and all, I am still here but having some frustration with my e-mail. Last Thursday I sat and poured out my usual ramblings four times and kept getting dumped off line. I finally saved the e-mail in a file and now have to wait for my kids to get back from Grandma's house to show me how to copy and paste it into my compose/send box. Anyway I haven't had much time to myself lately and so I just sat down today to read my 30 something e-mails.
I have felt like the abuser and I feel like you have to sell your soul to live with a man. I always felt like everything I wanted was compromised for what he wanted. From what video to rent, how to decorate the living room, and raise the kids, to what positions in bed and how much foreplay. Maybe our mistakes lay in our education, If we didn't have knowledge then we might be happy in our ignorance. No, they would still find a way to belittle us even if we did everything their way.
To all 2002 will be our year of enrichment and true enlightenment. Thank you all for giving of yourselves and for your time, I appreciate it so much. Happy Holidays. Love, TB
Subject: Feeling like you're abusive too
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001
From: Dawn
To: The Ladies
Tammy, Thank you for joining us. I wanted to send you a note to say that it's SO COMMON to suspect you are abusing after reading www.drirene.com and "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans. The truth is, you are probably being abusive at times. The key is to curb your own, mostly reactionary, abuse, and recognize his abuse. Mainly, practice self-control and expect it from him too. Of course, you can control yourself; not him. I will guess that as you read more of Dr. Irene and the Evans book (do you have the Evans book?), you will go through more shame/guilt about your own behavior. It took me a few months (maybe 3 or 4) to take it all in, sort it out, categorize it in my head and take away the message. Reading that site was like working on an extended study of a subject -- as I immersed myself in it -- more and more subtle messages/teachings became evident, and at one point, it all clicked together. I understood how to see my bad behavior without harshly judging myself; I realized how low my self-confidence was and how much I chased and tried to get my ex to love me and how that really worked against getting him to love me, I saw how trying to get someone to love you is just insanity anyway. I realized also that my ex gave to me what he could give and that what he could give just wasn't what I needed. We weren't a good match. My path and his were not conjoined. He just couldn't be my partner and my friend. After six more months or so, I stopped blaming him for that.
Anyway, it was rough and guilt-ridden time coming to this knowledge of being verbally abused. It's often so subtle -- the abuse -- that you feel like you are crazy for feeling abused. There's no hard evidence, and like we say, everyone thinks our husband/boyfriend is the nicest guy. He'd take the shirt off his back for anyone. The thing is that when he takes the shirt off, no one sees that he's taking the shirt from you and giving it to someone else. All others see is that he's giving the shirt to help someone else -- what a nice, helpful, stand-up guy!!!! They don't see you doing without, being neglected, put down, belittled, disrespected. When my ex and I moved into the house he had bought, he put in a water filtration system, so the little faucet filter I had wasn't needed, so I boxed it up and stored it. These faucet filters aren't really expensive but they do cost like $40 or something and I wanted to keep because I always had in the back of my head that I might not be in that house forever. Well one day, my ex's best buddy, Dennis, was over and was talking about needing to get a faucet filter, and my ex without even asking me (I was standing right there.) just dug out the filter box and said, “Here Dennis, take this, we don't need it.” He didn't even look at me or ask me. I was so weak and needy that I didn't speak up. I really wanted to keep the filter. Also, I didn't want to say "NO." in front of Dennis because then that just adds to the lore that I was the joyless, selfish wench and my ex was the helpful guy. Sound familiar at all to any of you? It still irks me thinking about it. Of course, after I moved out, I went and bought another filter! Dawn
Subject: We get abusive in reaction to the crazy-making
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001
From: Shelly
To: The Ladies
Hello all, you can't imagine how this group is helping me!!!! I want to comment on a few of the things you all have been sharing. I will try not to be too prolific, though.
Mom wrote "I am struck by how alike we all are when in an abusive relationship, (which I've just now been able to understand as my relationships, thru Shell, the books and Dawn). We think of ourselves as abusive or just as bad as our partner because we yell or react negatively when we're just about crazy by their words or actions." I too am struck by how alike we all are. Do you know we represent every generation except the 20 year olds? There is Mom at 72, me at 53, Tammy at 38 , and Dawn at 32. How incredible. Tammy said the same thing to me at first when I described the verbally abusive relationship: that sounds like me! Yes, we do get abusive--I yell and get sarcastic, I think Tammy yells and breaks things and I think the defining thing is that we do it in reaction to crazy making and they do it to start the crazy making. I'm not sure, but I know that I keep my word, I remember what we agree to (he forgets constantly), I do what we agree to (he forgets constantly), I do things for the good of the family (he does what he wants), I admit when I am wrong (him-seldom), I strive to do better (I am not sure what he strives for), I try desperately not to hurt him on purpose (he hurts me all the time without thinking), I try to be a team member (he agrees I should be a team member), I try to improve myself and the marriage (he agrees that I need to), I try to protect his ego (he thinks my ego needs to be brought down a notch or two). I wish I had a good thing to say--this is his apparent motive and this is mine--Dr. Evans says it the best, she says they want to control and dominate you--have power over and you want mutuality. That about says it. I want a partner and he wants to be boss.
Dawn wrote: that we feel "more shame/guilt about your own behavior " about how we act. Yes and we need to improve--not for them but for us. I am so much happier now that I am not reacting with yelling and sarcasm! Not only that, we fight less because of it. Dawn then said, "It's often so subtle -- the abuse -- that you feel like you are crazy for feeling abused. There's no hard evidence." Oh my God, Dawn this is the truth. I feel ashamed for saying I'm abused when he is so superficially good. Not only that, I feel ashamed that I am still here--not that I know where to go. Even the state of Virginia does not recognize emotional abuse as any grounds for divorce. Unless he agreed, I would not be granted a divorce. Then, do I want to go? Ideally, if he would meet a few conditions, I would want to stay. He won't meet them... so I guess I'll leave the next time he gets unreasonable. But he's being so superficially nice--well some of it is genuine too. But since nothing has been addressed, the abuse will begin again.
Finally the water filter thing. It’s funny. Seems your ex took credit for your good deed. Although like your ex, I might give away my partner’s used things too! I gave his vacuum cleaner away (but I did ask). Then I made sure they knew it came from him--so I didn't take credit. What you are angry at is that you couldn't speak up when you wanted it--and you would have looked selfish. But if you had tried to give his "whatever" away, he would have objected loudly, made you look controlling, and if it was another woman, she later would have shrugged with you, "well that's so typical of men, won't let go of any old thing." Dawn, remember that thing you wrote that paper “From My Ex's Perspective? Could you send that again? I think all of us should have a copy. And finally--I thought my guy was totally different from all my other men. I joked about finding a man who was not my type. It was just a deeper layer of the same thing. I think your dream was a lot on those lines. That relationship with Jamie is a deeper layer. BUT--progress!
In the cave man days, I don't think women tried to figure men out. Although even then, cave men probably got eaten by saber tooth’s when getting lost because they wouldn't ask for directions. Cave women accepted the status quo because they didn't have to live with it long. It is only with evolvement that we start to question these things and I am so grateful for the opportunity to do this! Shelly
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001
From: Dawn
To: The Ladies
Ladies, I don't like to believe it but I do suspect that being in a long-term relationship with a man, many women just accept the status quo. Accept more housework, more child care, more emotional work, keeping things on track in the house (schedules, appointments, social stuff), and keeping the relationship on track too. I know it's not all relationships or all men, but MANY -- or maybe just many of my friends/family. The women I know in generally happy marriages (content but with occasional problems) just accept the roles, and the emotional lacks of their husbands. They do what they do for themselves and their children. I've noticed that these women do say "no" to things though when they are tired or feeling overwhelmed. They also don't hide their feelings from hubby, but they still carry the load of emotional work, relationship work, housework, child care, etc. I never was able to accept that with my ex. And his family (his sister, aunt and mother who he is close to in particular) are all women that just accept the roles. So, my ex's model for how women should be was that, and I wasn't like that, so he thought I was lazy, selfish, etc. Just some thoughts. Happy holidays to all! Dawn
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 09:38:18 -0800
From: Mom
To: The Ladies
I'm truly inspired by the group's struggles and awed by the age spread and how the perspective will help us all. I was one of the early feminists, finding out that all I could do with my college degree in Life Science was to be the secretary at the zoo. It's not fashionable to be a feminist anymore and I personally don't blame everything on men because we live (some of us) in a society that will let women work, own property and have dignity and respect.
That doesn't mean we don't mostly live in a man's world, where men feel divinely endowed with the power to know the right way to do things and attempt to have all within their grasp (men too) do it "their way.” There are many good-hearted men who "grant" others the right to their own way, but I still believe they absorbed the system with their genes. This is the way things are and it isn't going to change in a hurry.
After my last marriage at 50, I married my childhood boyfriend and believed God had given me my soul mate because of my good behavior (just a little sarcasm here), when I had most of the same problems I had with other mates, I opted "out". It didn't matter to me whether I was mostly at fault (they had convinced me), or I picked the wrong kind of man for me or I was socially inept, etc., etc., etc. It helped that it's this time of life when the hormones let go of us enough so we can think with our heads. Fessing up, I wouldn't have left him, I would have died trying to make a go of it believing it was meant to be and he was the true love of my life. I believed my ex was essentially good and if I could just get the "key" to it all, then we would be happy. My H left me and I cried, screamed, yelled, took counseling and boiled him in oil in my head for a year or two. How lucky I was that he left. His abuse was very subtle; he was the master of the stab in the back. Most of my friends thought he was such a nice guy.
Like Dawn, I believe you must live by the system if you want to be married. I love Joy Behar's solution, she has gone with the same guy for about 20 years, they both have their own homes and only stay together when they want.
What I will be doing on this list at the age of 72 and living alone (I have to put in that I'm very happy alone, lack for nothing I want and have not dated by choice for almost 20 years), is to be putting the pieces of this very puzzling part of my life together. The truth will make you free and it's a great comfort to me to understand it more.
I wish you all, for this coming year, that you will find your own way of truth and freedom!!!! Love Georgiana
Subject: Pray please: Miscarriage
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002
From: Dawn
To: Shelly
Shelly, I had a miscarriage last night. I didn't even know I was pregnant. The doctor said seven weeks along according to hormone levels. I don't know how to feel. I didn't even know. I had heartburn and food aversions and I had thrown up when I went off caffeine but I didn't have excessive breast tenderness. I didn't FEEL pregnant. I thought I just had an ulcer. Then I got my period -- or what I thought was my period on Dec. 22. It was light, brownish. I thought it was just old blood b/c my cycles are so irregular and typically 40-plus days long. I had had a pregnancy test in late October --two in fact -- one a week after the other -- and they both came back negative. I must have gotten pregnant right after that. I feel dumb. I didn't even think of pregnancy. I didn't feel the same as I felt when I was pregnant with Hunter.
Also, Jamie and I have practiced (somewhat) safe sex. I don’t know how to feel. I'm not unhappy that I miscarried. I feel stupid I didn't know I was pregnant. Signs were there. Just not the ones I had experienced in my previous pregnancy. I had been light bleeding for a week and thought I had just a lot to slough off b/c I had missed 1 to 2 periods, which like I said, didn't concern me too much b/c I have such long cycles and irregular periods. I don't know how many times I've thought I was pregnant in my life when I missed a period and I wasn't. Then the "normal" period bleeding began the night before New Year's Eve and NYE it just exploded. I was gushing and at first I thought it was controllable and went in a back bathroom in the house to take my pants off, wash then out and blow dry them. I took a blow dryer from the "guest" bathroom and didn't even tell Jamie or the hosts what was going on. I was embarrassed and wanted to clean up the mess I was making in the bathroom. I still thought I could control it. But then some huge clots passed and blood all over the bathroom floor, all over, no way I could clean it up.
Jamie came to look for me and I was trying to get cleaned up, crying and I wouldn't let him come in. I was in denial, conflicted, didn't want him to see me like that and see the blood clots. I let him in and Jen, (the host) got me some stuff to wear to the emergency room and brought everyone downstairs so they wouldn't see me leave. I was so sorry to leave her bathroom such a mess!!! Jamie drove to the ER. Of course I thought possibly I was miscarrying but I thought maybe it was something else wrong with me. They put me in a room and I continued to bleed excessively. They took urine, blood, even did an ultrasound and still we didn't know if I was pregnant or what was going on. Finally the doc told us (Jamie stayed with me the whole time -- he is so good and caring) that I was indeed pregnant and had miscarried and the uterus looked clear and he checked my cervix and that was closed and he gave me a drug to close up the uterus and stop bleeding and I went home.
There are more details of course. They gave me a little pamphlet on dealing with the loss of miscarriage. I cried a bit. I told Jamie sorry. Could he trust me? How did he feel? He said he didn't know yet. I worry this will fester and push us apart. We were both on board with how we felt but we are only DATING. This stuff is SERIOUS -- makes you re-evaluate. I know if you sleep with someone you risk this of course, but we are 32 years old for cripes sake. We aren't stupid. We were taking precautions, just not enough. This may add a layer of seriousness that is too big of a leap for us. I have to just wait and see. I like him so much.
Am I horrible for not feeling that bad that this happened? I didn't want another baby right now. I don't know if I want another baby, ever. It's hard. I want to be married if I ever have another baby and I want it to be planned. I know you can't plan your life but it wasn't the right time to have a baby. It just wasn't right and I guess god thought so too. Pray for me because I feel like a hypocrite praying since I hardly ever do except in bad times. Dawn
Subject: The Universe is talking to you
Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002
From: Shelly
To: Dawn
My dear sweet and strong Dawn, Oh my gosh!!!!! I am flooded with conflicting emotions. How interesting that your body knew and tried to tell you: you thought you had deep stomach pain and suspected an ulcer. Your spirit also tried to tell you with your dream--the baby that was not Hunter? And Jamie's reaction was so similar to your ex's as in your dream with the Jamie/my ex blending of your symbols. Only your conscious self was in denial--about more than the pregnancy, I think.
First, I am so grateful that you are OK--both physically and spiritually. Next, I am definitely happy that you are not currently pregnant because we both know what a difficult time that would create for you. Finally--of course I know how you feel about not wanting to have another child. I got my tubes tied after my daughter was born. I knew I wouldn't do that one again, once was enough. I remember when I was being wheeled down the hall and laying in the delivery room, I told myself, "I know I will forget the pain, everyone tells me so, but I won't forget that I told myself UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES WILL I EVER DO THIS AGAIN!" And I meant it. There would not be a second pregnancy or birth for me! It was horrible and I would never do it again. I might have another child via adoption, but not birth. So I thoroughly understand your hesitation to repeat this particular bit of biology God saddled women with. I often wondered if it would be better to divide like an ameba. Cleaner and less emotionally charged, too.
Amebas aside, what a great opportunity for you! How good God is to you. You see, the universe is talking to you. It has been talking to you and now it is screaming at you. You know how dreams can be interpreted? Well messages from our higher self/universal self start with promptings, then come in dreams, then come in nightmares, then manifest in events in our lives if we don't listen to our inner voice and dreams. Interpret these events like you would a dream and you'll be amazed at what your higher self is saying to you. Remember my forest and trees? In our 12 step program, we tell our "babies" (we sponsor people in the program and call them our babies) to listen closely to what we tell them, because when we get in over our heads, they will have to give our words back to us. So as you tried to point things out to me, let me share some things back.
You wrote, "I told Jamie sorry." You what? Why on earth would you be sorry? Remember when I broke my toe and so inconvenienced hubby that he was a jerk about taking me to the clinic? Would you have me tell him I was sorry for being so clumsy that I cracked my toe on the door jam? Or would you have him be supportive, understanding, and willing to help in any way he could? Christ, the neighbor's would have been more helpful and kind than my H was. Your host, Jen was wonderful to you and she didn't get you pregnant! Jamie should have been apologizing to you!
You wrote, "I didn't know. Could he trust me?" About what, Hon? Because you accidentally got pregnant? No one wanted you pregnant, least of all you. It was truly an accident, like me stubbing my toe. There is male birth control, you know. It works very well. This is not a question of trust, but of responsibility and he shares in this 50-50.
You wrote, "How did he feel? He said he didn't know yet." Hello? I think this should be reversed. He should be asking and worrying about YOU. Not you about him. You are the one who suffered the accident. Remember what you have told me about oppression and them turning things around on us? You wrote to me and I found it on Dr. Irene's site and in the Patricia Evans book repeatedly that: they reverse things on us so that they accuse us of their shortcomings and they twist the facts so that they become our victim. Remember?
You wrote, "I worry this will fester and push us apart. We were both on board with how we felt but we are only DATING." Maybe, but I worry more that you aren't getting it. Why would an accident fester and tear you apart if there wasn't already something wrong? It seems to me you feel guilty for being there!
You wrote, "I know if you sleep with someone you risk this of course but we are 32 years old for cripes sake. We aren't stupid. We were taking precautions but not enough." He is a grown up too. He is 50% responsible unless you were lying to him about something. Honey, look at the facts and compare his reactions to your past relationships, that important dream you had, and ask yourself what you want in a man. Do you really want another man who makes you practically beg for him to be an adult? To see his responsibility? To hold you as harmless as he holds himself? If he isn't crazy about you now, he won't be in the future--is that what you a re hoping for, that he will slowly learn to cherish you?
You wrote, "I want to be married if I ever have another baby and I want it to be planned." Of course you do. It's so difficult to be a single mom--sooo difficult. You are not any sort of hypocrite--you are honest and courageous.
I love you like a daughter--which is difficult because I feel like you are my mom or mentor, as often as not. Know that my love, respect, and support are with you Dawn. Please don't be angry that I spoke so starkly--but we have an informal agreement that we can say what we see, not to pressure the other but so our sounding board has validity--don't we? You know when you speak strongly with me, I love the honestly and your courage to share. I hope you take mine the same vein.
I notice you didn't send this to The Ladies--I think they would want to support you at a time like this. Won't you let me pass it on, or will you modify it and write to them, too? If you don't feel secure enough to share with Tammy could I at least inform Mom? She would REALLY want to know. She is grateful to you and would want to support you now when you need it. We are all in your corner and love you, Dawn. I hope you know that and rely on that! My deepest concerns, prayer, and love to you, Shelly
Subject: Jamie is not being a jerk.
Date Thu, 03 Jan 2002
From: Dawn
To: Shelly
Shelly, Yes. Go ahead and send to The Ladies. I just thought of you immediately the next morning as a support person. I am "over" compensating for this in the way of feeling sorry to do this to Jamie, to add this to the plate. It seems so unfair that all this stuff happens to the woman. The physical stuff happened to ME. I was bleeding. I was hurting. I was pregnant. I was sorry to not have known. I was sorry to not have seen the signs. I am having co-dependent tendencies resurface after this. But Shelly, Jamie is not being a jerk. He was by my side the whole time. He convinced me to unlock the bathroom door and go the ER. He rubbed my back during the whole time in the ER to relieve back pain (labor). He made me breakfast, lunch and dinner the next day and made sure I was OK. He just got quiet though. He's taking the loss harder than me. He is a feeler more and I am a thinker. I think things through to process; he feels things more. I stuff feelings. He was a bit more distant the day after than I would have liked. He is quieter now than I like. He is reassuring me when I have insecurities about being a burden, etc. He is sympathetic to my physical cramps and bleeding. He's just dealing with this in his own way. He is taking responsibility. He wouldn't let Jen tell me how much it cost to have a pro cleaning company come in and sanitize her
bathroom. He is taking care of the cost. When I protested, he said, this is my responsibility too, Dawn. Anyway, I won't defend him any longer. If this breaks us up, there is nothing I can do about it. I'm not used to having a man stick by my side -- even while he appears to need space to process his own stuff. It brings up fears from the past with past relationships.
I didn't want a baby right now. But I'd do it again, at a more appropriate time. If a relationship was secure, advanced and farther past recent baggage (i.e. Jamie's recent divorce is still lingering on his mind.)
I have slipped Shelly and worried more about him and US than myself, but he's not pushing me away. He's working on his own resolution and has asked for some time and I'm granting him that and not nagging him to tell me how he feels about the miscarriage. But we talk about it in the sense of telling our friends and how I'm feeling and when I see by gynecologist and stuff that I feel overwhelmed today with work deadlines, insurance crap and THE INCIDENT on my mind.
I don't mind your strong words, Shelly. I'm just not sure it's as abusive as it seems you may think. Or maybe I'm still in denial. Please share with all the ladies. Thank you for your kindness and direction! Dawn
Subject: I was reacting to your slip
Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002
From: Shelly
To: Wonderful Women
Hello Dawn, I am relieved that you answered so quickly. I agree, he is not being a jerk. I think I was reacting to your
slip, more than him. It was what you were doing and I was assuming he solicited that reaction from you. I give gratitude to your guardian angels that he is standing by you and taking responsibility. How nice for you, and us! we need the good examples. Just remember, If he opts out, he may know about his shortcomings than you do and it will be the right thing. If he stays that is good too. I'm glad it happened this early on before you were hopelessly in love. This will tell you a lot and in the larger scheme of things, I think in the best interests of you, Hunter, and Jamie.
Hugs and a warm blanket, Shelly
Subject: There might be some grieving
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002
From: Georgiana
To: Dawn
What a shock and surprise and draining thing to have happen "out of the blue". I will be putting all my good healing thoughts to you. My advise would be to heal, your hormones are running rampant and your body needs rest. It takes months (if not longer) to get over such a shock. There might even be some grieving. After I had my three I was through too. I lost a fetus and was very glad. We are told so often that it should be a terrible and traumatic experience but it wasn't for me. I was just relieved. Love, Georgiana
Subject: The sadness hit me about two days after
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002
From: Dawn
To: The Ladies
Ladies, I am thankful for your kind words and thoughts. I am feeling up and down, the sadness hit me about two days after, not right away. I'm still dealing with the physical stuff bleeding/cramping)and it's not only a reminder but definitely just dang irritating. I feel like I could sleep for two days straight -- no exaggeration, I've been known to do that -- only getting up to eat something and pee. But I can't. I have Hunter a lot right now and I don't feel comfortable explaining to the ex what is going on with me and why I feel like I need a break. It would raise too many questions about my personal life and how my choices/actions may affect the ex. YUCK! How did I get here?
Anyway, my codependent modesty is kicking in and I feel like I've been stealing the spotlight here. This too shall pass. I am dealing with this. Jamie and I have had some very good conversations that have brought us closer. It's so different yet wonderful to have a man that I can work out emotions and bad times with. He was being distant for a while and he said he felt I was being distant, But we've began the talking and communicating about this and it is now feeling like a joint experience, rather than something we were experiencing separately.
Subject: Don’t complain in order to validate self
Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002
From: Shelly
To: Wonderful Women
You know Dawn, you have been the foundation stone upon which this group was built. And as we learn in the 12-step programs, we recover by leaning on the ones who we have helped. Thank you for helping and then leaning too!
Also, your new guy does sound wonderful. I think you are making real progress with Jamie and I’m a touch envious. I wish my husband had been 1/6th as nice when he took me to the clinic with my broken toe. I have learned that when I need him the most is when he’s very likely not to be there for me (I say “very” because occasionally he is there--I just can’t count on it.)
I, too, feel like I focus the group too much on my own problems. I had a couple of incidents before Christmas with my husband that I wanted validation for, but withheld my plea to you guys so that I wouldn’t dampen the Christmas spirit. I suppose that is a bit co-dependent, but also it’s prudent because I don’t want to complain in order to validate myself and stay here in my victimization. Of course it is important for us to be validated. At the same time, as is pointed out by the author of The Co-dependent Dance, “It is a codependent pattern to gather allies. To have people to complain to, who will sympathize with us and tell us how awful the other person/people were for abusing us. We gather allies that will give their approval to our self righteous indignation. When we are feeling self righteous indignation we are buying into a victim perspective.”
Yes, we feel like victims because we have been abused. But giving power to that and getting stuck in that position is what I want to avoid. One solution is to leave the abuser. But I am afraid that I will repeat, as is so often the case, the same pattern in a new setting--the geographical cure. I am very concerned about my spiritual choices, growth, and health in all this. And I don’t want to be in denial about what is going on with Bob and how that affects me.
Yes, he is an abuser--but a relatively benign one as I compare my situation to those on Dr. Irene’s web site and now the Mysogynon.com site (great program but harsh toward men!). I have managed to stop and slow down the more gross displays (15 of the 16 signs of abuse described in Evans book) of abuse toward me. And yes, it will most probably escalate again as we move through this cycle and come out of the honey moon stage... yet all the literature says there is hope for us if he meets some basic criteria, which my husband does meet. (He is affectionate, tries to meet some of my demands, is basically honest, is considerate--under some circumstances).
Just before Christmas he went into anger mode again and belittled me because hypothetically I might have gone to a conference and spend one night away when his son was with us--my husband was really angry. It was his normal pattern of insanity and trying to make me less than “You are really something,” he said in disgust. I didn’t respond to it. In fact when he confronted me with his anger, “Just let me get this straight” he spit out and was in my face, he went on and I raised my hand in the stop sign and said calmly, “We will not fight about this. I am not spending the night and there is nothing to fight about.” It stopped everything.
What bothered me was my feeling of elation--yes, ladies elation! Before me ranted the normal man I had come to distrust and I welcomed it. WOW. How terrible. He was so nice for three whole months and when he had a big break down, I was relieved and elated.
I delved into my spiritual lessons, both 12-steps and Edgar Cayce for answers. It seems that Cayce says if we don’t forgive one who has wronged us, then we are the problem! He says that means that we feel superior, morally superior over them and that is the problem. And Cayce says that we can not judge others. Can not find fault and blame. We should only look at ourselves. Yuck.
I do feel morally superior over him. And I am judging him. And I do blame him for what happened. Soooo where does this leave me? I want his ”realization, his regret, his repentance,” as Dawn pointed out to me. To be fair, he has given me little bits of each of these--but sooo little. To him it feels like a mountain in concessions and to me it feels like molehill offerings.
Bob came to me again to talk, because I have been so distant for so long. He is beginning to hurt because I’m not much responding to his “niceness.” I threat him with dignity, respect and distance. In the middle of our talk, he did a door slamming thing--I mean DOOR SLAMMING. (Already reverting to old patterns and the honeymoon may soon be over). In our talk, he tried, he did. But he isn’t going to return to counseling because it is “unproductive.” He feels that taking me to dinner 2 times in 6 weeks after shopping and going to 2 meetings with me is enough socializing and outside activity for us. My husband informed me that he was still hurt about the financial stuff because I have extra money and he doesn’t. My husband said, “I had one shot with my mom’s inheritance and now that’s over and I’m resentful.” He doesn’t get it, that it’s selfish to not go to thanksgiving at my brothers (we spent the last 5 years going to his family’s) and that to take two weeks vacation and spend the whole time hunting and not one day with me, is self-centered in the extreme.
My H won’t tell me thank you for paying half his son’s bills for four years because our finances were combined and he doesn’t feel that I contributed to his son because he would’ve paid it if our finances were not combined, anyway! Finally, my mate claimed that him not getting a new car was never a big deal to him. This infuriated me! How dare he throw off the car thing, like it never meant much to him? He tortured me with his demands to get a new car I tortured myself trying to make it possible for him to get a car by suggesting we mortgage the house and several other options. The upshot was that he wanted it one way, his way--for us to buy him a new car and not me. I demanded that we both get one with joint finances or each pay for our own. At one point he considered that suggestion (I set a boundary with this). My H suggested that I contribute the $10,000 my truck was worth to buy both our vehicles. I refused to contribute an extra $10,000. He decided to divorce me.
Now he claims that the car issue is not, nor never was, important. How typical typical to discount all the good I have done and “forget” all the pain and trouble he caused. How typical! Now it seems so very evident that I will never really get his “realization, his regret, his repentance.” I will never receive the emotional honesty that I crave, because his denial system about his abuse is well intact. He can’t get honest for whatever reasons.
And now Edgar Cayce, whom I trust with spiritual advice, says that I can not find fault with him, have to forgive or I become the culprit, and I have to go on in “loving indifference” acting as if the bad things had never happened! Along these same lines the author of The Co-dependent Dance writes “feeling superior--someone is emotionally abusive, and I keep expecting them to treat me in a loving respectful way - then I am the one who has the problem. I give them the power to push my buttons because I am empowering an insane expectation. I think they ‘should’ act different, so I keep setting them up to be the bad guy, and me to be the poor abused victim. This is a codependent pattern that allows me to feel superior to others because of my self righteous indignation.”
To not be morally superior is a rough one for me. I truthfully feel morally superior. One bit of advice gleaned from the Oprah show was “To get something you want, you have to be the source of that for another.” In order to take the focus off his being the bad guy and set myself up as the victim, I want to know, “What would I do to be the source of realization, regret, repentance to him? I do think I have expressed my regret for my behavior, told him many times where I recognized my problems, and made amends--financially and otherwise.
I don’t want to make a decision to give this marriage my all. I don’t want to condemn or find fault with him continually. I want to let go of the past and know he can’t come out of denial and accept it. Please give me feed back. I don’t want to keep pointing the finger at his behavior. FEEDBACK please. Love you all, Shelly
PS: What he’s done right: made a great Christmas for me. Bought my Mom a Christmas gift. Signed a post nuptial agreement. Pays me $200 a month to equalize our investment in our property (it will take 20 years). Calls me when he’s going to be late. Helps clean up after dinner. Is showing a healthy sexual interest in me right now. Actually asks me now what I do all day and appears to be listening. Made a place in the snow for the dogs to go pee. Prays with me before every meal. Keeps me on his health insurance. Watches the dogs when I travel.
Subject: I’m depressed and stuff
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002
From: Tammy
To: The Ladies
Hey Shelly, Sorry I am so out of touch, I have been having a rough time. Just depressed and stuff. My Internet service is a pain ‘cause we are so far out of town. So I pour out all this stuff than I lose it and get upset, it takes a lot for me to find time for myself and then all this frustrating stuff goes on with the computer.
I have been thinking a lot about Dawn's miscarriage. Dawn, I am so sorry for all you have had to bear. It is so difficult to know why things happen the way they do. I wish I know what to say, it sounds like a bit of a mixed blessing. It must be so painful to lose a child, but at the same time some relief since it was not planned. My best to you dear Dawn.
Anyway, miss worry-about-me-Shelly, I am okay. I only have three day's a week where I really have time to get on line and then sometimes BJ is on doing his homework or the server won't answer soooo. The house sold the day after Christmas so I have been very busy trying to find another place to buy. I am so relieved, Finally I will have my own place that HE has no right to enter. You would not believe, well maybe you would, the things my ex does. Just
walks right into my home, goes to my desk, takes out my stamps and puts them on his bills. He took Melinda and a friend to Spokane last Monday, then he came inside when he dropped them off and just sat down and started watching the movie Benny and I were watching. I finally asked, “When are you going home?” Then he says, “I guess I am not welcome here.” Crazy making! Love ya--TB
Subject: Our diversity is amazing
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002
From: Shelly
To: Wonderful Women
Hello to all of you, I just read over Tammy's last communiqués. Again, our diversity struck me. This time it is our various circumstances with trying to figure out this abusive relationship stuff, our co-dependency, shortcomings, and patterns, and the men in our lives. First there is Mom who wouldn't let a man's big toe into her home if he had romantic intentions. Then there is Tammy who was just divorced and finally sold her home to get her abuser out. There is Dawn who is on the dawn of a new relationship determined not to repeat patterns. Finally me who is learning to stop the abuse and live with the man. Look at what we can learn from each other!!! It's wonderful.
Dawn, I know you taking care of yourself and probably concentrating on Hunter and your new honey. We love you and want to know you're OK and HAPPY. You must get tired of being Head Sage around here, but I do thank you for reigning me in and helping to change my life. Have fun but don't forget us here at the "Wonderful Women" support group.
I have really been learning some tough spiritual lessons, but before I go into them I wanted to comment on Tammy’s last email. I had to laugh about your H just wanting to carry on and sitting in your house to watch TV. My husband